Curse

Lord Sojar · Jun 04, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I am using our most up to date drivers, and I tried previously released drivers, and even my developer drivers. No effect. I checked power draw on my card, and it is going through proper gate switching (2D, 3DL, 3DH, CX3DH) This has got to be an issue with Vista... but I cannot pinpoint it.

I tried running GW in XP-Compatibility mode, no result. Tried running it as admin, no result. Tried changing drivers as listed above, no result. If my developer drivers can't fix the issue, then it certainly isn't a driver issue. That is because the developer drivers use an open platform system, fully enabling all services on the card(s), and running full chip instruction sets, not limited like public release drivers. My 7900GTs that I kept around are running at an efficiency level equal to that of the 8800GTS using the dev drivers, because they are not being limited by software throttling. When I first start GW, I get 160-280 FPS with vSync off.

I tried disabling SLi. I also tried 2 different modes of SLi rendering, including split frame and reverse frame (dev drivers allow reverse frame). Nothing changes.

And actually, as an update, it isn't just when I minimize... if I change ANY graphical option in GW, the FPS drops to the 8-15 range, and I have to restart the game to fix it. I am at a loss of words...

The Meth · Jun 04, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Whoa... thats even weirder. Gotta be some horribly screwy interaction between guild wars and vista specific to your setup. I don't know what to say.

Lord Sojar · Jun 04, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Whoa... thats even weirder. Gotta be some horribly screwy interaction between guild wars and vista specific to your setup. I don't know what to say.

Nor do I, but it is irritating me to no end. I cannot for the life of me, figure it out... I may have to roll this rig back to XP Pro SP3 for the sake of sanity. Either that, or live with not being able to minimize GW for anything unless I am willing to close it. Hmm, I wonder if I run it through Texmod, what will happen.

*goes off to test another theory*

Snograt · Jun 04, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Hate to say this, but you could open up a support ticket and hope & pray that it ends up with someone who understands what you're saying.

Lord Sojar · Jun 04, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

Hate to say this, but you could open up a support ticket and hope & pray that it ends up with someone who understands what you're saying.

They don't even know how drivers function, muchless how to fix this. The last time I had an issue, they told me all of my RAM was defective, and I needed to replace it all (to the tune of nearly 600 bucks) Needless to say, I checked my BIOS settings, and I had forgotten to configure one thing, and presto, it was fixed (this was a while ago). PlayNC support have little pages that they refer to for standard issues, which this is not. They would be about as helpful as lighting myself on fire.

Ah yes, and my TEXMOD theory failed, but I didn't have much hope for that. I would be able to figure this out if I had somewhere to start, but I don't have a starting place I can find. I can't just go ripping my PC/OS apart blindly searching and hoping something I do will mysteriously make this better.

The Meth · Jun 04, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

Hate to say this, but you could open up a support ticket and hope & pray that it ends up with someone who understands what you're saying.

And if that doesn't work, there is the slightly smaller chance he could completely reverse engineer Vista and make it fail less.

Lord Sojar · Jun 04, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

And if that doesn't work, there is the a slightly smaller chance he could completely reverse engineer Vista and make it fail less.

If only I was that good at programming, which I am not (I know very little C++ and C#, and I know ASM like I know english, but ASM and OS does not make)

So yes, little chance, very very very very very very very to the Nth power, where N= a very very very large number, chance of that happening. Vista's source code (judging from its total installed footprint), is probably 2 billions MSFT Word pages long... I would die before I could read through it all.

I am already using my developer tools on this home installation of Vista, which is totally uncalled for, and I am essentially ripping my installation apart to figure this out. You should see what poor Vista keeps trying to do to stop me from punching through all its barriers and blockades. It is throwing me tons of errors, to which I auto ignore them. Don't try this at home kids. Next step is to mess with hardware recognition on Vista itself if I can crack through the protection files surrounding the damned Device management area.

moriz · Jun 05, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

give me some of those drivers. i'd do anything to make my fx5500 PCI run a little faster.

fusa · Jun 05, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

This sounds similar to the problem I've been having with running Neverwinter Nights 1, except I don't ever get above 10 fps. I use to get well over 60 fps at 2048x1536 using my old 7800 card, but after upgrading to 8600 NWN has run at a crawl. The same for 8800 users too, some people have been able to fix it themselves by doing some of the following in the nvidia control panel:

Turning off thread optimization
Multi-display/mixed-gpu acceleration set to single display performance mode
Turn on extension limit
Texture compression is not forced
Texture Filtering - Trilinear optimization off
Triple buffering off

You can probably find more located in the thread here: http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewto...&forum=49&sp=0
The problem has been for both XP and Vista and has existed well over a year. NVidia doesn't even recognize it as an issue, and Bioware hasn't done anything to help either.

Lord Sojar · Jun 05, 2008, 01:13 AM // 01:13

I just finished tearing apart Vista's graphics support structure, and the only thing I got out of that was a corrupted interface and more headaches. I had to repair it using my Vista DVD image.

Hmm, extension limits eh? I will give that a try. I already had set it to single display performance mode, as the dev drivers default to that. Thread optimization... I don't see where that would cause an issue, but there is no sense in not trying. The odd thing is that no one else has this issue while using Vista, so there must be something specific at work here.

My next step is to bypass the VGA BIOS structure using a custom BIOS, in hopes that I can force the card to constantly 3D accelerate. While it will put more stress on the card, it may prove a theory I have regarding drivers in Vista Ultimate 32bit, which I came up with when I was smashing through its VGA device interface. From what I can tell, the programming Vista uses to put the PC to "sleep" enables deep cycling on the CPU, but it also might be causing the VGA BIOS to go into 2D low power modes, and they may not turned back on except on the initial launch of Guild Wars (I already have a custom BIOS on the cards). Moriz mentioned acceleration earlier, and I didn't really focus on it at a software level... but at a BIOS level it would cause symptoms like I am describing. When I found that Vista Ultimate 32bit (I don't know about the other distro's) was actually using a passive VGA BIOS command chain, it made me wonder if it was not only telling the CPU to go into a C3 or C4 cycle, but perhaps forcing the GPU into a similar state (called a hold state) in order to make your PC appear off, but not truly off. That would explain it. I am going to do the BIOS rewrite and activate EEPROM protection protocols on it, so Vista can't get to it. I will update you guys tomorrow.

LoneReaction · Jun 05, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Best of luck!

dreary79 · Jun 05, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

I'm having the same issue on both of my vista pc's. The game runs great with wonderful fps. But if I minimize and restore I get super low frame rates. I have had both of these computers on XP and never had this problem.

I was going to post this problem myself, but I saw that it was already posted. I've been pulling hairs out with this problem for about a month now.

I've tried everyone's recommendations here and none have fixed the problem. I do not get this problem with other games.

Brianna · Jun 05, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

That's good knowing you're not the only one, that might be comforting to Rahja's case.

What is both of your computer's exact specs?

Lord Sojar · Jun 05, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Damn this issue... I can't lock Vista out of the VGA BIOS, not without putting total EEPROM protection protocols on it, which essentially makes it work on the level of Intel integrated graphics, and causes constant instability. It must be something completely odd, something I just haven't thought of. I am almost glad you are having the same issue dreary, because at least I have some base to work off of.

Post your PC specs, including CPU, Mainboard, RAM, GPU(s), PSU, HDDs, Optical drives, sound card (if you have one), and version of Vista you are running. Let's see if I can make heads or tails of this issue.

fusa · Jun 05, 2008, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I've noticed that when you minimize GW Vista sets the priority of GW to low. Could this have something to do with it? Vista not setting priority back to normal correctly? I was going to mention this but think you said that just changing video settings lowered frame rates also.

Blackhearted · Jun 05, 2008, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusa

I've noticed that when you minimize GW Vista sets the priority of GW to low. Could this have something to do with it? Vista not setting priority back to normal correctly? I was going to mention this but think you said that just changing video settings lowered frame rates also.

GW puts itself to 'Low" when out of focus like that. When it's back in focus it goes back up to normal just fine.

Snograt · Jun 05, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jen-Hsun Huang

(RE:Intel's proposed move into the graphics card arena) "We're going to open a can of whoop-ass"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jen-Hsun Huang

(RE: Integrated graphics) "You already have the right machine to run Excel. You bought it four years ago. How much faster can you render the blue screen of death?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by nVidia

(RE:Intel's DX10-enabled integrated graphics) "Company of Heroes @ 1280x1024, no AA, no AF - 3.6fps"

Not at all relevant to this topic, but I thought it would cheer the mood somewhat

fusa · Jun 05, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhearted

GW puts itself to 'Low" when out of focus like that. When it's back in focus it goes back up to normal just fine.

But that might not be happening for the people who are getting low fps when minimizing then restoring full screen.

dreary79 · Jun 05, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Here are my specs, I have another Vista box for home theater that I'll put GW on and test.

Computer 1
Operating System: Windows Vista™ Ultimate x64 (6.0, Build 6001)
Service Pack 1 (6001.longhorn_rtm.080118-1840)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd.
System Model: 965P-DS3
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6400 @ 2.13GHz (2 CPUs), ~2.1GHz
Memory: 2046MB RAM
Page File: 1184MB used, 4898MB available
DirectX Version: DirectX 10
DxDiag Version: 6.00.6001.18000 64bit Unicode
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 7900 GS
Display Memory: 1016 MB
Dedicated Memory: 248 MB
Shared Memory: 767 MB
Current Mode: 1680 x 1050 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Description: Realtek Digital Output (Realtek High Definition Audio)

Computer 2
Operating System: Windows Vista™ Ultimate (6.0, Build 6001)
Service Pack 1 (6001.longhorn_rtm.080118-1840)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: VIAK8T
System Model: AWRDACPI
Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+, ~2.0GHz
Memory: 1534MB RAM
Page File: 1111MB used, 4474MB available
DirectX Version: DirectX 10
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 6800 LE
Display Memory: 615 MB
Dedicated Memory: 248 MB
Shared Memory: 367 MB
Current Mode: 1440 x 900 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Driver Version: 7.15.0011.6925 (English)
Description: Digital Output (C-Media PCI Audio Device)

(Update) THIS COMPUTER DOES NOT HAVE THE MINIMIZE PROBLEM

Computer 3
Operating System: Windows Vista™ Ultimate (6.0, Build 6001) Service Pack 1 (6001.longhorn_rtm.080118-1840)
BIOS: Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4800+ (2 CPUs), ~2.5GHz
Memory: 2046MB RAM
Page File: 789MB used, 5294MB available
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 9600 GT
Display Memory: 1264 MB
Dedicated Memory: 497 MB
Shared Memory: 767 MB
Current Mode: 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Driver Version: 7.15.0011.7474 (English)
Description: Digital Output Device (SPDIF) (High Definition Audio Device)
Hardware ID: HDAUDIO\FUNC_01&VEN_10EC&DEV_0883&SUBSYS_10438232& REV_1000

Lord Sojar · Jun 05, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Hmmm... the only thing I notice is the pagefile difference as being significant between the 2 above, and the HTPC setup you have. Why that would cause BIOS interface issues is totally beyond me.

I am going to put in a phone call to one of the driver engineers and open a development ticket with them on the matter. I will see if they can pinpoint if this is driver write/read related, or something else. I don't have the tools nor the knowledge needed to diagnose severe issues within a driver buildup. I will figure this out for you dreary and myself, one way or another.

If they can't turn up any results, I will pull the protocols on your cards and compare them to mine.

Who manufactured your cards on the machines with the issue? And, in addition, what BIOS revision are they using?

Really though, this must be Vista... it has to be. I can try a corporate communiqué to Microsoft's Vista development center in reference to driver interaction (if I even have permissions to do it... I don't know how far my position can take me before I hit red tape that I cannot cut through)